Some Thoughts on Zauriel – Part 2 (Finally)

If you haven’t already, go read Part 1, then come back and join us for the next paragraph.

As I may have mentioned in an earlier post, I always find it intriguing to write a sympathetic character whose view of the world is completely different from, even diametrically opposed to, my own. Zauriel certainly qualified as that, but he posed another, more peculiar challenge.

In order to write a character as more than a construct, I need to believe, at least during the act of writing, that the character is *absolutely real*. Talking duck, fifteen-year-old prison inmate, angel of the Lord — doesn’t matter. I have no idea how to render a character credible to readers if it feels “made up” to me.

See where this is going?

Accepting Zauriel as real also required that I accept his creator — in this context, God, not Grant Morrison — as real. I would have to shelve my agnosticism for a while and, somehow, allow myself to think like a person of faith. (One heck of a leap for an inveterate wag who considers nothing sacred.) Then, I had to figure out at least the broad strokes of *what* I would believe, *if* I believed.

And *then*, I had to find a way into the character himself. How does an angel think? What motivates him? Now that he’s been flesh and blood for a while, how does he feel about living in the material world, and what does he make of the human condition?

Editor Joey Cavalieri provided me copious research material, including photocopies of Zauriel’s *JLA* appearances and the Mark Millar-written miniseries, all of which certainly helped. And I poked around online, also, for whatever I could find about the character.

In the course of said poking, I came across an interview with Zauriel’s creator — in this context, Grant Morrison, not God — in which he explained what he had in mind when he conceived the character. According to Grant, Zauriel was an attempt to use Judeo-Christian lore as the basis for a superhero in the same way that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby drew upon Norse mythology in the creation of Thor.

For me, that was the key. Now I understood how I could get to know this character.

There was a very famous early-1960s issue of *Thor* that opened with the god of thunder sitting in a Manhattan malt shop, sipping a milkshake and conversing congenially with the other, mostly teenage, patrons.

Zauriel’s mission on Earth is to proclaim God’s existence and demonstrate His love for humankind in a more tangible, more visible way. If Zauriel took that mission seriously, it would bring him into constant contact with ordinary human beings — indeed, he would actively seek out opportunities for such contact.

What I needed for the opening of this story was Zauriel’s equivalent of Thor in the malt shop.

In that ’60s scene, Thor is idolized like a celebrity. The other patrons crowd around him, angling for a better view, wanting to touch him, asking for his autograph. He leaves the malt shop flattered and feeling good about his big, blond, Asgardian self.

I won’t reveal what the equivalent Zauriel scene turned out to be, but I will tell you that he doesn’t get quite the degree of adulation that Thor did, and he’s more than happy to depart when matters call him away.

Writing that scene, I discovered as well that Zauriel works best for me as a vehicle for raising questions, not for handing down answers. He’s unique in that he can simultaneously discomfit non-believers and the devout, while still somehow remaining lovable to both. His very existence is a mild affront to non-believers. His commentary on humans and their beliefs can convey supreme reverence, sublime innocence, and playful heresy (from the narrow human, not the broader angelic, perspective), all in the same sentence, confounding the faithful.

In the end, I had a lot of fun writing the *Zauriel* one-shot. My only frustration was the limited number of pages. The story I wanted to tell really should have spanned two or three issues. Still, I’m very pleased with the end product, including Mike Kaluta’s magnificent cover and Peter Snejbjerg’s wonderful interior art.

I’ll be interested to see what you folks think of it. If nothing else, I have a feeling it’s going to be the subject of fan debate for quite some time.

28 Responses to “Some Thoughts on Zauriel – Part 2 (Finally)”

  1. Dwight Williams Says:

    If offered a longer stint with the character, I suspect that you’d jump at it now. Looking forward to seeing how that works out.

  2. scott Says:

    Sounds like this should be an interesting read. I had a similar experience writing “MY MEETING WITH MARS” for an episode of BATTLEBOY over at http://www.TNAOBB.blogspot.com It’s exciting to stretch your sense of self and experience new things from another character’s POV. Milligan’s HUMAN TARGET examined this. It might be cool to write a book like that about a writer that gets lost in his characters.

  3. Fred Chamberlain Says:

    >Accepting Zauriel as real also required that I accept his creator — in this context, God, not Grant Morrison — as real. I would have to shelve my agnosticism for a while and, somehow, allow myself to think like a person of faith. (One heck of a leap for an inveterate wag who considers nothing sacred.) Then, I had to figure out at least the broad strokes of what I would believe, if I believed.

    I found myself in a situation with some similar parellels when I began dating a woman who had been raised in a conservative Christian family. I am pleasantly surprised and at times almost amazed that I have become close to her family and am engaged to be married to her this coming Labor Day. I just celebrated a birthday and arrived home this evening after spending the afternoon with her family, being told that they were greatful that I shared similar values as them. I’ve been open about my own agnosticism throughout the past 2 1/2 years and felt some hope for the world when these words were spoken to me. Nice warm fuzzy story there.

    >And then, I had to find a way into the character himself. How does an angel think? What motivates him? Now that he’s been flesh and blood for a while, how does he feel about living in the material world, and what does he make of the human condition?

    Makes perfect sense for a creator, meaning a writer such as yourself. It also is a skill that counselors use, known in the field as viewing the client from a phenomenolgical perspective. It is essential in understanding the clients’ position,rationele, etc and, just as importantly, feeling true empathy for the client.

    >Writing that scene, I discovered as well that Zauriel works best for me as a vehicle for raising questions, not for handing down answers. And he’s unique in that he can discomfit both non-believers and the faithful and still remain lovable. His very existence is a mild affront to the former. His commentary on humans and their beliefs can convey supreme reverence, sublime innocence, and playful heresy (from the narrow human, not the broader angelic, perspective), all in the same sentence.

    Huh. Based on a primary mission of raising questions for both myself and others, it appears that after all of the criticisms I’ve received over the years, it appears that I may actually be an angel. 😉

    >In the end, I had a lot of fun writing the Zauriel one-shot. My only frustration was the limited number of pages. The story I wanted to tell really should have spanned two or three issues. Still, I’m very pleased with the end product, including Mike Kaluta’s magnificent cover and Peter Snejbjerg’s wonderful interior art.

    I look forward to reading this story. It sounds like a solid story.

    >I’ll be interested to see what you folks think of it. If nothing else, I have a feeling it’s going to be the subject of fan debate for quite some time.

    … and possibly get a few to begin asking and exploring questions of their own.

  4. Mario Di Giacomo Says:

    His commentary on humans and their beliefs can convey supreme reverence, sublime innocence, and playful heresy (from the narrow human, not the broader angelic, perspective), all in the same sentence.

    I like that. Especially the “playful” part. Why should demons be the only ones with senses of humor? 🙂

  5. George Hall Says:

    Grant Morrison as God…intriguing concept.

  6. Starocotes Says:

    @Mario: In my experience is God the one with a real strange sense of humor 😀

    @Steve: Can’t wait to finally read the comic. I really like to see what different people make out of different concepts. Zauriel is one of the concepts I was not interested in at all because the concept is to close to my own believes (christian, as mentioned before) but the realisation to far away from anything I believe in. But with anything you wrote so far I’m really looking forward to the comic. Do you think I should read up a little on Zauriel or is that not necessary?

  7. Mario Di Giacomo Says:

    Star: Of course. Any deity who could develop the platypus…

    The part that intrigues me right now is… how does the Helmet of Fate fit into this?

  8. Charles Bryan Says:

    Thor in the malt shop — one of the best scenes from 60s Marvel. If more had been done over the years to give Thor more human connections like that, I think titles featurung him wouldn’t get cancelled so quickly.

    So, Steve, after buying the Zauriel one-shot, should we do a “Save Manhunter” style letter writing campaign to encourage an ongoing title? Or is Doctor Fate going to keep you busy enough?

  9. Ali Says:

    I can’t wait to read this. Sounds very, very interesting.

  10. Steve Gerber Says:

    Charles: “So, Steve, after buying the Zauriel one-shot, should we do a “Save Manhunter” style letter writing campaign to encourage an ongoing title? Or is Doctor Fate going to keep you busy enough?”

    Well, let’s not jump the gun — or, I guess, in this case, the flaming sword. Wait and see if you like the book. *Then* feel free to mount all the letter-writing campaigns you want. I’ve already told Joey Cavalieri that I would *love* to do more with the Zauriel character if I can get sufficiently ahead on *Doctor Fate*.

    Speaking of which, I’m sufficiently *behind* at the moment that I have to cut this short for now.

    Thanks to everyone for the fascinating comments! Don’t stop!

  11. berk Says:

    I don’t like it. As I think someone’s already pointed out, the difference between using Thor or Zeus in a DC/Marvel comic and using a character like Zauriel is that Zauriel’s God – or “Presence” or whatever euphemism you want to disguise it with – is by implication the real, true, one, ultimate deity in of the DC(multi-)U. I could stomach a Jehovah of the DCMU if this were not the case – if he were treated by DC writers in the same way as those other deities. In fact that would be quite interesting, and IMO a much more honest approach to take. But my impression is that this “Presence” is to be taken by the reader as the supreme divinity of the DCU, much as his real-life believers take him the real world. This is a cop-out, IMO. A cop-out because I don’t think DC or its writers would admit that through their fictional universe they are making a statement in support of the validity of Judaeo-Christian-Islamic theology, but that is what I think they are doing if Zauriel functions in the way I’ve been led to believe.

    I could have this all wrong, though, because I never have read a lot of DC, and can’t remember ever reading a Zauriel or Presence story, or even much of the Spectre. I’m mostly going by stuff I’ve heard or read about the DCU, including what I’ve read on this blog.

  12. George Hall Says:

    Zauriel would still be quite an interesting series, but it would work very well if he were also to make the Faithful as uncomfortable as non-believers. How many denominations would find a real angel contrary to their own beliefs?

  13. Stephen Payne Says:

    I’m always interested to see non-believers take on the beliefs of religious, as long as they’re respectable. But I don’t worry, you’re a strong enough writer Mr. Gerber.

    Though I do have a question about Zauriel, especially since I’ve never read a comic with him in it. Is he one of those characters who can just magically fly, or does he require energy just like any other mortal? If so, how many calories does he have to injest daily to get those wings to work?

  14. Starocotes Says:

    @Berk: Actually non of the DCU mentionings of “the presence” is really the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic god, there are to much differences in basic concepts for that. The presence is more like a conglomerate of some basic pagan believes that where incorporated into the modern christian believes.

    Besides, Grant Morrison (creator of Zauriel) considers himself a chaos mage and so he most certainly is NOT making any kind of statement with Zauriel.

  15. Mario Di Giacomo Says:

    Stephen: Considering he never sleeps, I’d be surprised if it’s POSSIBLE for him to get tired. He’s not an organic being, but a mystical entity in a “flesh suit”.

  16. berk Says:

    Starcotes: I don’t think Morrison and DC can be let off the hook quite so easily. Looking at the link Bart posted a little earlier, it’s pretty clear that the Presence is in fact equated with YHWH or “God”. Even if this is inaccurate, the fact that the Presence is ministered to by beings referred to as “angels” with names like “Zauriel” which sound very much as if they’re from the Judaic system.

    As for the Presence’s supposedly impersonal, un-God-like nature (BTW, I disagree strongly with Bart’s assertion that Judaic and Christian theology has successfully freed their God-concept from the belief in “presence”) I see this as a good illustration of how Christianity would like to have things both ways: it wants to say that their God is an impersonal Tao-like concept far removed from the crude anthropomorphisms of the Old Testament, which they try to pass off as mere metaphor, but they continue to habitually refer to God as “He” and “Our Father”, and generally, in eberyday practice treat God as the same old anthropomorphic being he’s always been and still is. I’ve been reading Paradise Lost lately, and Milton’s God demonstrates this point quite sharply: throughout the epic, he makes grandiose claims of trancendence and immanence – “Boundless the deep, because I am who fill /Infinitude” [VII.168-69] is a typical example – that are contradicted, in fact made utterly absurd, by his all too human, not to say petty and tyrannical, actions; because this God does act, and is a presence. Now I gather that the Presence isn’t usually portrayed as acting in the very personal manner of Milton’s God, but the mere existence in the DCU of some supposed supreme-“Presence” that employs Judaeo-Christian-style “angels” with names like Zauriel seems to me to give the lie to any claims that this is anything other than the Christian God.

    There are a few possible ways out of this mess, I think. If they want to demonstrate the Presence’s non-affiliation with any specific pantheon including the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic one, they could make YHWH a distinct character on a par with Zeus and so on; or they could follow Bart’s suggestion and show that the Presence itself is not the “Ultimate”, but just another divine being in the hierarchy. But then, the fact that DC and Marvel have codified their fictional multiverses into rigid hierarchical arrangements is itself one of the biggest problems with both the DCU and MU in my view, so maybe I don’t like that idea after all.

  17. Mario Di Giacomo Says:

    Berk: An interesting approach, but I think you are selling DC a bit short. The thing is, the Presence has NEVER been seen, or even heard from (unlike God-Milton 😉 ). And we’ve already seen that Zauriel, Asmodel, and that bunch are quite different from the classical image of angels.

    So can you really say that DC is espousing a particular Judeo-Cjristian viewpoint… when they don’t use Christian imagery?

    Anyway, Christian imagery is not a new thing. I was reading an old Dr. Fate story last night… he was fighting a demonic being, and was calling on all sorts of gods to defeat it. Finally, he pulled out the big guns… and called on the Saviour. One cross-shaped energy blast later, and he was free.

    Funny thing about the co-writer of that story… 😀

  18. Steve Gerber Says:

    It’s exchanges like this that make me wish comic books still had letters pages.

  19. Steve Gerber Says:

    Mario: “Funny thing about the co-writer of that story…”

    Was that one of the early-’80s Doctor Fate stories I co-wrote with Marty Pasko?

  20. Mike Lukash Says:

    This is my first point. I hope I make my point clearly.

    I’m an Atheist. I was raised Roman Catholic. Perhaps I can lend an intresting perspective on things.

    My journey did not happen overnight, but rather taken several turns and paths until I’ve reached my current decision. During that time, I went from true believer of the Catholic Church Dogma to a new age belief that all relgions had a version of “The Truth” There were certian concepts that were called by different names, but represented the same ideals. This is a concept that Joesph Campbell talked about in “A Hero with a Thousand Faces” Humanity gains a view on life…breaks it down into symbolism and bleif system…and it “rings true” for them.

    And I think that is what any corperate comic universe can hope to achieve. Their audience more willing to accept a fantastic world. One where Science and Magic exists. But for it to work, it must be “vauge” The important thing is that it “rings true” What makes the inventions of Lex Luthor work? Vaugness and the trust the reader has in the writer to make it plausable.

    When an author gives too much detail or over explain it, there is a risk that a fact will be wrong…and thus the spell of suspension disbelief is lost.

    When Morrison created him, he created a character that embodied what “Rang True” for an angel. John Ostrander also “Rang True” for his Old Testiment version of religion.

    And of course, what “ring true” is laid out by the rules of whatever genre the story is laid out in. Batman would look at Zueriel as a being from another dimension. This explination would “ring true” for a science minded individual.

    This is why a lot of Vertigo books have small audiences. The belief that “Good” angels is as bad as “Evil” Demons…doesn’t ring true with the general public.

    For me, I have found that religion no longer “rings true” for me. However in a comic book universe…as long as the rules of the game are laid out before me, I can read a story without a care. As long as it “Rings True” I can enjoy it.

  21. Ali Says:

    Mikes last paragraph goes for me too.

    How about Lee/Kirby’s Galactus trilogy in FF47-49 for an interesting view on angels and god? And then there’s Kirby’s Fourth World with The Source?

  22. haven o'terrorism Says:

    I’d suggest that the fellow who made the Silver City in Gaiman’s Sandman (not to mention marking Cain’s forehead) is the Judeo-Christian God. How could he not be? And yet, he mustn’t be: look at the weird environment the concept of this God exists in.

    But, even if you disagree with that, you must admit that in Sandman it just isn’t so big a deal, and doesn’t present many problems. Anyway I’ve never been a hundred percent sure that Zauriel’s “Presence” is the same as Lucifer’s “Presence”…and then there’s the Source…it’s complicated enough not to be too worrisome, I think.

    But really what this makes me think of above all is this guy Richard Kearney I’ve been reading, who proposes that the scriptural God is not so definite a character as we’ve all grown up thinking he is. In the Bible itself, his nature is elliptical to say the least: he’s a burning bush…a pillar of smoke…whatever he is, he’s nothing at all that you can lay your hands on and be certain of. He is, perhaps, just a voice. Hey, what is he, anyway? You know: “whom shall I say sent me?”

    As Kearney points out, in the Martin Buber translation of the Bible, God answers this question with the statement “I am that which may be…”

    Which also happens to be the title of Kearney’s book, “The God That May Be”. It’s a good read.

    But so in any case, from that kind of perspective I personally feel like there’s lots and lots of room to move in the story of a messenger angel. Because he’s probably never met the guy, either!

    Just a thought.

  23. Fred Chamberlain Says:

    Mike:

    >For me, I have found that religion no longer “rings true” for me. However in a comic book universe…as long as the rules of the game are laid out before me, I can read a story without a care. As long as it “Rings True” I can enjoy it.

    When reading a comic that shares the medium with guys in tights who fly through the air, lift cars and spins a web any size, I find myself more capable of believing that some guy sacrificed himself on a cross 2,000 years ago and has saved us all than when I walk around and hear people proclaiming it as truth. Suspention of disbelief is a wonderful thing and the vast majority of comics focus on iconic figures of some form. My only requirement in any story…. Draw me in and make me invested in the story being told.

  24. Mario Di Giacomo Says:

    “Was that one of the early-’80s Doctor Fate stories I co-wrote with Marty Pasko?”

    Indeed it was. I found a copy of the Immortal Doctor Fate reprints. Good stories.

  25. Bob Kennedy Says:

    haven o’terrorism:
    The clear implication of the story was, it’s Jejovah.

    But the reason writers shouldn’t be held to strict RPG-type rules is this: The afterlife and all spiritual matters are too strange and freaky for mortal types to understand. That’s why the details vary so much from one religion to the next, and ultimately from one person to the next. Fantasy lit (and writing in general) would suffer horribly if this were not the case.

  26. Mario Di Giacomo Says:

    My apologies… I’ve checked the specific issue, and it was one of the stories Martin Pasko did solo. Still an amusing coincidence, however.

  27. Matthew Says:

    Hi. Sort of new here, but I figured I’d give my $0.02. First, I’m Jewish, but I’m also of the opinon that all religions, including my own, are right and wrong at the same time. Becuase they are all human attempts to explain something beyond human. Trying to understand it is like trying to draw in five dimensions.

    Now, your point on Grant Morrison is intresting, because he wrote the textbook on superhero metafiction. The true dieties in the comic universe are US, the readers, writers and whatnot and yet, curiously enough, the creations will completly outlast us.

    And yet the won’t outlast us, because our fictional counterparts are still technically in the comic universe, such as the Seven Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp.

    I know there’s a point I’m trying to make, but I seem to have lost it.

  28. Bart Lidofsky Says:

    Berk: BTW, I disagree strongly with Bart’s assertion that Judaic and Christian theology has successfully freed their God-concept from the belief in “presence”

    Bart: That’s good, because I don’t believe I ever made that assertion, and, if I did, then I miswrote.